*Autocracy, Inc.*, Anne Applebaum (podcast 3/3)
(cont.)
Internally.
jmk
Yes. Have the Polish People started to think differently about politics because of the War in Ukraine?
Anne Applebaum
Because of the war in Ukraine, people are more afraid and fear often makes people prefer autocrats. So, it remains to be seen. We're a few months away still from the election, but these things don't work the way you imagine. I mean, emotionally people are more frightened. They're more anxious. They may prefer some system that they know to some political change, but I don't know. Right now, if the elections were held tomorrow, the opposition would win. But as I said, we're still some months away.
jmk
You're talking a lot in hypotheticals. I mean, in reading your books and hearing you talk, I mean, I get the sense that you've got a very personal connection to Poland. You've got a sense of what…
Anne Applebaum
Yeah, of course. I've written about it. Yes.
jmk
Yeah, I mean, you've got a sense of what people kind of feel there. I mean, do you think that the opposition is likely to win or do you think that the Law and Justice Party's likely to win in the next election in October? What does your gut say?
Anne Applebaum
I don't know. I mean, I know that Law and Justice, the ruling party, will cheat in the sense that they already are. I know they will use the arms of the state in order to convince people to vote for them or not to vote for the opposition. They're already doing that. I wouldn't exclude some last-minute game like, I don't know, locking up leaders or some such thing from possibility. People are talking about that now openly in Poland. My sense is if there were genuinely a free election that the opposition would win, but we'll see.
jmk
So, Anne, we've obviously been talking about the idea of Autocracy Incorporated. But I do want to refer back to your most recent book, which was called Twilight of Democracy once again, because the title, just like the subtitle, is very fascinating. It makes it sound as if democracy is in its twilight. That it's about to be extinguished. Like we're about to go into a period of even greater darkness. Do you really think that democracy is in its twilight or do you feel a greater sense of hope than that title would give me the impression of?
Anne Applebaum
Yes. I ended the book with a greater sense of hope than the title. The title was, by the way, very hard to come up with. I wouldn't make too much of the title. It was a hard book to name. So, that was what the publishers wanted in the end. There were other possibilities. I mean, I could have done Twilight of Democracy? question mark and thrown some ambiguity into it. But I mean, I think we are certainly at risk of that. I think a second Trump presidency would be so disruptive and would create so many ripple effects of violence in different ways that I wonder whether American democracy would really survive. For example, I can imagine democracy coming to an end in Poland. I wouldn't have said that five years ago even.
So, we are at a moment of very, very high risk and I'm not sure that people really know that or understand it or if they do, if they care. There is a mood now that the system's so rotten or it's so terrible that we might as well abandon it because anything else is better. So, I always counsel people who say that, very often young people, to go and visit a country that's not a democracy and see if that's what you would prefer.
You know, we have the system that we have. It has a lot of flaws. It needs a lot of reform and lots of changes. I can certainly imagine an American democracy that had somewhat better rules and worked according to better logic. But I'm not sure that throwing it up in the name of an oligarchy or a one-party state is really going to make people's lives better.
jmk
Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Anne. Again, I want to plug the speech one more time. It's available on YouTube. It was with the National Endowment for Democracy. It's called Autocracy, Inc. Apparently, we're going to be seeing a book with that title one day.
Anne Applebaum
Fingers crossed.
jmk
Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk.
Anne Applebaum
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Key Links
Watch Anne Applebaum's Lecture "Autocracy, Inc"
"The Autocrats are Winning" in The Atlantic by Anne Applebaum
Twilight of Democracy: The Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism by Anne Applebaum
Democracy Paradox Podcast
Francis Fukuyama Responds to Liberalism’s Discontents
Larry Diamond on Supporting Democracy in the World and at Home
More Episodes from the Podcast
More Information
Apes of the State created all Music
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