Rappin’ with Zappa (entrevista)

Frank Zappa, l’home lliure

Rappin' with Zappa
Genius Musician Warned Against Misguieded Foreign Policy, News Manipulation, Stupidity
by Ken Boite, Being News Service

With more than 60 albums to his credit since releasing Freak Out in 1965, Frank Zappa was more than just a musician. He was a cultural force, an American symbol of creativity, individuality, and courage.

 

From accepting Vaclav Havel’s invitation to help get Czechoslovakia on its capitalist feet, to defending artistic freedom before Congress during the censorship trials of the Parents Music Research Center, to holding a voter-registration drive on his last tour, the mother of far-out jazz-rock often turned his intellect to the hardball world of politics.

 

In fact, he almost ran for president before falling victim to fatal cancer in 1993.

 

In a telephone interview April 11, 1991, Zappa spoke with me from his California office about the Central Intelligence Agency, industrial espionage, misguided U.S. foreign policy, and germ warfare, as well as other important issues, including taking a stand.

 

Following is the interview in its entirety, which originally appeared in the April 1991 issue of SATYAGRAHA and was later republished in April 1994 as a tribute after his death. Our conversation is now presented online for the firs time in hopes of disseminating its content far beyond the 5,000 issues of our esoteric magazine, which primarily circulated within the college town of Carbondale, Illinois (1990-1994).

 

 

The Mafia and Culture

 

Boyte: Theodore Adorno and the Frankfurt School claim that art has come to a point at which it is manufactured by the culture industry for our consumption and is no longer art but a force for domination. Would you comment on that charge and tell me what artists you think could escape such a charge?


Zappa: First of all, let’s look at the idea of making such a charge.  The underlying premise of the charge is true. But on the other hand, look at the futility of even making the charge.  Who shall receive the information of the charge itself, and what will they do with the information, like who gives a fuck?

 

I think that in a way it’s a sweeping generality that excludes the work of some people who don’t fall into that category, but I think the basic thrust of the charge is true. But at the same time, it’s a sad situation that the charge even has to be made.

 

Boyte: Would you comment further about the culture industry and how it might dominate people’s minds?

 

Zappa: The word ‘culture’ is kind of a loaded word. Let’s take a look at the world of painting. Painting, as a business in the United States, is controlled by a sort-of mafia that selects who will be a star and how much their work will be worth.

 

And the other part of that mafia is dealing with the sale and resale of major works of dead people as investment property. It’s kind of like the real estate business.  And because the general public, if they have some innate sense of appreciation of art, they also have an equal amount of ignorance built in regarding the mechanics of how the art was brought to their attention.

 

In other words, you might, as an average guy, go to see paintings on display without realizing what kind of a horror show took place before those paintings were on display. I think that a world in which the profits split between the artist and the gallery owner is 60-40, with 60 percent going to the gallery owner, is a pretty sad indication of the way things are today.

 

Boyte: Does the same mafia control the record industry?

 

Zappa: Well, I used the word ‘mafia’ in the sense of a closed system (maybe ’cartel’ would be a better word). And the power of these arbiters of taste is never really disputed…

“I think that anybody who imputes mystical, world-moving powers to the CIA is probably giving them more credit than they are entitled to. And as far as secret organizations that make things happen on a worldwide basis, the CIA is only one.”   Frank Zappa

 

CIA-War Connection

 

Boyte: What role do you think the CIA has played in the Gulf War?

 

Zappa: I think that anybody who imputes mystical, world-moving powers to the CIA is probably giving them more credit than they are entitled to. And as far as secret organizations that make things happen on a worldwide basis, the CIA is only one.

 

Many different organizations could play a role behind the scenes of world events. All I know from watching the news is that there was, several months ago, a ‘finding’ signed by President George Bush to provide covert aid to the Kurds. And apparently the United States decided to back out of the deal. And anytime you see Bush on TV saying, ‘No, we never asked them to do that,’ it’s a lie. Of course we asked them to do it.

 

Bush’s speech that he made in the U.S. urging Iraqis to rise up and overthrow Saddam Hussein was translated into Kurdish and then broadcast over Voice of America.

 

So in all cases of civil unrest around the world, you could probably, if you wanted to spend the time digging around, find some aspect of CIA involvement. But I think there are forces larger and more powerful than the CIA.

 

Boyte: Who might these forces be?

 

Zappa: There are intelligence sources of other countries, of course. And anytime you have national interest at stake, you often here speeches in the U.S. about the U.S.’ national interest. Well, these same national interests exist for other countries. They usually don’t get pronounced on television like they do in the U.S. Especially if you’re looking at events in the Middle East, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the Israeli intelligence service wasn’t involved in some way.

 

 

Industrial Espionage

 

Boyte: To what extent do you believe espionage is going on in the United States?

 

Zappa: There’s plenty of espionage in the United States, but it’s not the cloak-and-dagger stuff you see in James Bond movies.

 

Most of it is industrial espionage. In fact, there’s even been talk of reorganizing the CIA to accommodate the acquisition of the type of information that will be more useful in future conflicts.  Many of these conflicts are not going to be military. They’re going to be economical.

 

If a country is trying to look out for its own national interest, it pays to know what the other guy is planning in terms of economic policy, industrial policy or whatever.

 

So, I think that there’s probably a thriving business of stealing business in stealing corporate secrets, secret formulas and corporate strategy plans. Things like that are definitely going on. In fact, a few weeks ago 60 Minutes ran a story about a private investigation company (I believe it’s called Kroll)… The way this company earns its money normally is by conducting industrial espionage.

 

 

National Interest and Misguided Foreign Policy

 

Boyte: So you think the CIA’s actions are justified on the basis of national interest?

 

Zappa: No, I’m not talking about justification. I’m just talking about the fact of what goes on. The matter of justification has a lot to do with how you view what would be a legitimate national interest for any country… Whether a citizen would agree with governmental thinking is a different thing.

 

I happen to think the United States has embarked on some very foolish and misguided foreign policy trajectories.  And although we do have the machinery to accomplish different types of foreign policy objectives, whether we should accomplish those objectives and whether they in fact represent a boosting of U.S. national interest is something that I would often take exception to.

 

Boyte: How would you change U.S. foreign policy?

 

Zappa: First of all, if you make an overt agreement with somebody by signing a document and you have a treaty, I think that before you sign the treaty you should know damn well where that treaty is going to lead. It’s like making a contract with somebody. And once you’ve made the contract, you should live up to it.

 

And I think that the last 25 years have been littered with broken promises. The United States just breaks promises with people who they have made deals with. In addition, you can’t, on one hand, be raving about Mr. X’s violations of international law while violating those same laws yourself.

 

And it disturbs me when I see U.S. public officials talking about this country being a nation of laws because they leave out the rest of the sentence. The way I usually say it is like this: ‘We are a nation of laws. They’re badly written and randomly enforced.’

 

This ‘style’ of doing business internationally is going to create problems for Americans in the future. You just can’t go pushing people around.

 

Boyte: So, you think the biggest problem with U.S. foreign policy is that we don’t live up to our agreements?

 

Zappa: No, no. That’s only one aspect of it. The foreign policy in the United States seems to be directed by people who have no real concept of other nation’s cultures, no real concept of the historical reasons why the people in these other countries behave the way they do, no sympathy for the average citizen in these countries.

 

Foreign policy decisions seem to be based on how the decision will play in terms of U.S. public opinion, which politicians hope will yield votes at election time. It’s like a game. And the game that is being played involves life-and-death issues for people in other countries.

 

 

Perceived National Threat

 

Boyte: What do you think is the biggest threat to personal liberty in the United States?

 

Zappa: There are two things that pose major threats. One is the apathy of the population itself because it refuses to see that there is a threat. The average guy really doesn’t understand that any discrepancy between what the Constitution promises and what the government delivers is something that needs to be remedied right away. I

 

It’s like course correction when you’re flying an airplane. Once it takes off, it doesn’t just automatically land where you want to go. Because if the wind blows in one direction or the other, you have to move the flaps around a little bit to keep the plane on course. And there’s a lot of wind blowing today in America. but nobody’s moving the flaps.

 

America has the lowest voter turn out of any industrialized nation. People don’t give a fuck. And it seems it’s easier for an American to believe in the devil than to believe in functioning democracy or a functioning government.  They’re more skeptical about their ability to control their destiny at the ballot box than they are about exorcisms on television.

 

And when you get to the point where you think things can’t be changed because the devil has certain powers and is doing bad things, or that everything will be OK because Jesus will take care of it. When the population gets into a position like that, then they don’t participate in a thoughtful democratic process anymore. And that’s a big danger, because, when nobody cares, the people who are inclined to do bad things go ahead because nobody opposes them.

 

 

Sports and Population Control

 

Boyte: The ancient Greeks believed that knowledge was derived from being able to discern patterns in the universe. What patterns do you see regarding the perpetuation of the ruling class in the United States?

 

Zappa: This goes back to the apathy of the people who are not the ruling class… But now we have to trace back where the apathy came from. Part of it comes from the type of entertainment that is provided to the masses of people in order to distract them from what’s really going on.

 

The easiest tool that is used is sporting events… People are more interested in daily sports scores of games than they are in what’s being said and done in the Congress every day. I mean, a sports score may indicate whether you won or lost a bet. But if you don’t pay attention to what these legislators are doing every day in the Congress, then you’re going to lose more than a bet.

 

 

News Manipulation

 

Boyte: Do you think someone is manipulating the people to keep them out of politics and distracted?

 

Zappa: It’s a fact. And it’s printed in the documents of the Iran-Contra proceedings. One of the things that happened during the early years of the Reagan administration was that Reagan set up a governmental agency to make sure the news was phased up with government policy, just like it would be in a communist country.

 

Without doing an actual takeover of the networks, the news aspect of what the networks were broadcasting was under the scrutiny of this agency, during the Reagan administration, and I imagine still today.

 

And the prime function of the agency, during the Reagan Administration, was to sell to the American public the idea of support for the Contras. In fact, the slogan was: ‘We paint white hats on the Contras and black hats on the Sandinistas.’

 

And in order to do that they would make phone calls to the news directors at the networks and complain about certain news stories. And reporters who were bringing in stories they didn’t like suddenly found out they were losing their jobs.

 

So, to a certain degree I believe this type of news manipulation is still institutionalized. There is still an office somewhere in Washington that orchestrates the news.

 

There’s also an old-boy network that I’m sure exists, because there are no non-Republican owners of any major media in the United States. So, anybody who has the power to print a lot of newspapers or broadcast a lot of information all belong to the same club. And they cooperate with each other. They cover up the misdeeds of people in their club.  And they try to manipulate government policy. Apparently they have been very successful.

 

 

Psychological Operations

 

Boyte: Have you heard of the Psychological Operations Division of the U.S. military?

 

Zappa: Oh yes, I’ve heard of PSYOPS.

 

Boyte: Do you think they were involved with the manipulation of visual images broadcast by the networks during the Gulf War?

 

Zappa: Well, I don’t think you have to be too manipulative with the image itself, so long as you can control what the topic of the story is. I mean, I am more suspicious of CNN just because of the quantity of material that they were broadcasting and the slant of the material that they were broadcasting. I thought that their reporting was incredibly unbalanced…

 

The reason I can be fairly expert about all this is because I literally taped the war from beginning to end, from every major channel that I could pick up information from. And I’ve got some beauties on tape. One of the things was that the Los Angeles Times wrote an article about the ABC affiliate in Los Angeles who had an announced policy of showing no anti-war demonstrations…

 

As a result of this, one of the news guys at the CBS affiliate did an editorial about it giving Channel 7 (ABC) the raz because everybody on the air was wearing yellow ribbons, and they wouldn’t show any anti-war anything.

 

So I would say that’s a kind-of news manipulation right there. One of the things about television news is that if you see it you tend to believe it, and if you don’t see it, it tends not to exist. So it’s very easy to manipulate public opinion by reciting all these polls saying that Bush has got this huge approval rating, and everybody supports the war, and all the rest of this stuff. And I would take all of that with a grain of salt.

 

 

Hitler’s New World Order

 

Boyte: How do you feel about the whole concept of a ‘new world order’ and the Bush administration’s idea that the United States should serve as the international police force to intervene in the world’s regional conflicts?

 

Zappa: I’ll take you back to an interview I did with a German newspaper about six weeks ago. The guy was sitting there absolutely stunned that George Bush was using the words ‘new world order’ because he said that’s what Hitler used to say.

 

If in fact that is a Hitler quote, it’s a little bit baffling that no news organization has ever pointed it out on U.S. TV. And it is incongruous that you have George Bush saying that Saddam Hussein is Hitler, when he’s talking about a ‘new world order’ and behaving in much the same way Hitler did. I mean, let’s figure it out: a hundred-hour war; is that not a blitzkrieg? Doesn’t anybody remember any of these things?

 

The idea of the United States being the world’s police force might be palatable if the United States were a shining citadel of moral authority. But it’s not.

 

Another thing is that it costs money to have a police force. Does the average citizen really desire to spend the next few centuries paying taxes that will allow us to maintain a military force capable of dealing with all the evil goings-on in the world? I don’t think so.

 

 

Germ Warfare and the Spreading of AIDS

 

Boyte: Have you heard anything about the U.S. being involved in spreading the AIDS virus throughout Africa via the World Health Organization?

 

Zappa: Yes, I’ve heard of it.

 

Boyte: Do you believe it’s true?

 

Zappa: I believe it’s within the realm of possibility. You know, we have a national policy that we do not engage in bacteriological warfare. That was stated during the Gulf War. However, we still manufacture biological agents. We have a place in Fort Detrick, Md, where we do research for germ warfare. Now, you figure that one out.

 

Boyte: What evidence have you seen that would support the possibility that the United States did spread the AIDS virus throughout Africa?

 

Zappa: The main piece of evidence is in the Congressional Record. I mentioned this in my book, and I got the information from another book called A Higher Form of Killing, where I first saw the subject mentioned in the early ‘70s. The book refers to somebody standing before a Congressional appropriations committee asking for money to develop a biological agent that would be ‘refractory to the human immune system.’

 

However, what hasn’t been unearthed is the rest of the proceedings. I want to know who the congressmen were, whether they are still in the Congress, how they voted, whether money was dispersed, and who got the money.

 

 

Fall of the American Empire

 

Boyte: What do you think will lead to the downfall of the United States?

 

Zappa: Stupidity. That’s really the main enemy of the South Africans or the Cambodians or anybody else. But there’s so much racism involved in the American self-view that it’s hard for us to see our global position in a rational or balanced way. Because most of the propaganda that comes out of the television and educational system is so geared toward making Americans feel that in some way that we are super human.

 

 

Taking a Stand

 

Boyte: What can we do on a personal level to address the problems of our country and improve the things we don’t like?

 

Zappa: What I do every opportunity I get is tell people what I think. And I guess you could do the same thing. At least get some conversation going. I mean, people have stopped talking to each other in America.